Curse

PieXags · May 14, 2005, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Inacurate sums it up in my opinion really well.

They did not say you can win EVERY SINGLE MATCH with a fresh PvP-only character, they said you can COMPETE. And you can do just that, you CAN compete with a PvP only character, and sometimes you CAN win against those with better equipment. And even if you don't win, you can still give them a pretty good match. THAT is competition.

compete:

verb: compete for something; engage in a contest; measure oneself against others

You can measure yourself against those who've gone the extra mile, you can even win against those who've gone the extra mile.

You can not say that it's just the items that give the other team the edge, chances are...they're just better as a whole, chances are if you played them 5 times in a row, you'd win a few times just as they did. If you get entirely massacred then you're not up to their SKILL level, which they gained BECAUSE they played more. Their gear may have given them the edge, but they EARNED that edge by going out and getting what they wanted.

The game does just what it was supposed to, gives both PvP players and those who want more PvE as well a chance to play.

The best way to "fix" you guys problem would be to, as previously suggested by another, split the arenas between those with pure PvP characters and those with pure PvE characters. And leave the PvP options as is. Why? Because PvE is SUPPOSED to have extra benefits, that was stated on the website, they just said you didn't NEED to go PvE to win. And you DON'T need to, as we've seen from some people here. Why should the PvP only players get the same benefits as those who've played BOTH portions of the game? Those who bought the game for PvP only, and are complaining about "grind" obviously misinterpreted some statements about the game.

Here's a quote right off the box:

You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate.

---

This is true enough, someone with a higher skill can by all means win against those who've played more hours than them. What about those who went out and got the extra items in PvE? Well, who said they played longer than someone who just played PvP all the time?

If you give PvP only players everything right off the bat you remove the rewards of going through the PvE portion of the game, I personally enjoy both parts quite a bit. I enjoy PvE because it's rewarding to finally take down that last boss, or because I like the feeling of charging through insane amounts of char with the rest of my team dead so I can get Althea's Ashes, it was hard sure, but I sure as hell feel rewarded because of it. When I move on to the higher PvP with my characters (I've played in it, just with other people's characters), I'm going to feel damn good that I went through all those mass amounts of char, and the fact that I completed the PvE portion of the game is going to feel great. When DON'T you feel rewarded when you beat a game?

At the same time you can just play PvP, and when you finally take down the team who had all the best equipment, then YOU'LL feel rewarded that you managed to do so.

May 14, 2005, 06:40 AM // 06:40

You can't compete w/o grinding. You can keep refusing to believe it and ignore the tried and true examples that people have pointed out but that is not going to change anything. The devs know there is a problem so I guess that's a good start.

PieXags · May 14, 2005, 06:52 AM // 06:52

You can compete, I regularly play stock PvP characters along with other PvE characters, and I've not the greatest of armor. If by compete you mean win every match you think you should be able to, then no I guess you can't. But if by compete you mean the possibility to win under the circumstances than yes, you can. You win matches, you lose matches, if you want to have the extra edge go out and get the rewards for playing the second half of the game.

If the devs are working on fixing the problem, then by all means, I'm fine with that. I like them as a whole, I like the game how it is now, and I trust they'll come to a solution that satisfies PvP-only characters while still rewarding those who feel like going the extra mile.

May 14, 2005, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

You can compete, I regularly play stock PvP characters along with other PvE characters, and I've not the greatest of armor. If by compete you mean win every match you think you should be able to, then no I guess you can't. But if by compete you mean the possibility to win under the circumstances than yes, you can. You win matches, you lose matches, if you want to have the extra edge go out and get the rewards for playing the second half of the game.

If you give any decent team access to Zealous Mods, Superiors and +20% enchantment no one except a guild with access to alot of skills that currently must be grinded for will have any chance to beat them. It has nothing to do with skill, it's item availability.

Quote:

If the devs are working on fixing the problem, then by all means, I'm fine with that. I like them as a whole, I like the game how it is now, and I trust they'll come to a solution that satisfies PvP-only characters while still rewarding those who feel like going the extra mile.

Right, no one wants to take away from the rewards gotten through PvE. We want a system where PvP can be seen as an actual part of the game and not a pit-stop. But to reach that point we must all look at things objectively and recognize that their is indeed an issue here. No amount of reading off the back of the box can tell you what actually happens in game. If you dont believe me you can grind the items yourself or ask some of the better players to make you builds around those items and ask how they work.

Manderlock · May 14, 2005, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stur

The best solution I can think of and that I've seen suggested here would be to chop the game in half. Make the PVP characters only able to PVP with other PVP characters. And the PvE characters can only PvP with other PvE characters. A kind of separate but equal solution. Kind of like having 2 games in one but the 2 games don't interacted and have no affect on each other. That would be an acceptable solution, that way if you never make your pvp character and unlock everything you never have to face someone that has.

Ill say this 5 damn times no, no, no, no, no.

This is one game not two, and it needs to stay that way.

Sorry about the rune thing. I had a brain fart, and wasent realy in my right mind anyway.

(but then when am I in right mind?

)

Cain · May 14, 2005, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaineTog

You're ready for PvP even if you don't have every rune.
I do believe that the difficultly you are having finding runes is supposed to be a dterrant to farming; ie it's so hard to farm that you shouldn't do it.

You don't understand. I have to farm because others will do it. I cannot compete on a level playing field if my gear is inferior to those I am playing against. Trust me I know what I'm talking about. I have more experience in Guild Wars than anyone here who is not an alpha tester so don't tell me I'm wrong. I've done testing that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that items make a difference. Anybody who want's serious competition understands that items do make a difference and can be the deciding factor in a battle. Guild Wars is supposed to reward skill over time played. Right now it rewards those who farm the most. Why do you think top guilds such a us, The Fianna, Lotd, EvE, etc have not played a single ladder game yet? We're too busy farming to get the best gear so that we can compete fairly with each other, and everyone else.

Leventh · May 14, 2005, 07:56 AM // 07:56

As close as they may be please do not confuse "Grind" and "Farm"

Grind: The gradual achievement of a goal.
Farm: The mindless repetitive act of harvesting money or xp.

With that said, farm is usually short-term. One would "Farm" for an hour or so. Grind is a day in day out ongoing never-ending process. To ask for a lesser grind would mean the complete reworking of the game, making every monster give more XP and better drops.

You would be surprised what people would do for that one clinging advantage over their enemy. This is a game, and in every other game I have played the player (you) is usually rewarded for his time invested whether it be knowledge of the game environment (counter-strike) or better equip (Lineage 2). Guild Wars took a step beyond that and decided to combine the two rewards.

please begin all flames with a "*" so that I may ignore them.

wasteland · May 14, 2005, 10:10 AM // 10:10

I'm not sure if this would be a good solution but as a few suggestion:

Regular rewards from winning PvP battles in such a way that the items gained from winning in PvP can be used to obtain the runes you need (Obviously drop rate etc needs to be balanced so PvP only doesn't give an advantage over PvE)

I've never actually tried it, but I'm assuming you can't use signet of capture in a PvP battle. If you could that would give the PvP only players a way of obtaining the rare skills without having to do PvE.

Don't know how far these would address things though.

BlaineTog · May 15, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

I cannot compete on a level playing field if my gear is inferior to those I am playing against. Trust me I know what I'm talking about. I have more experience in Guild Wars than anyone here who is not an alpha tester so don't tell me I'm wrong. I've done testing that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that items make a difference. Anybody who want's serious competition understands that items do make a difference and can be the deciding factor in a battle.

And your point would be what?

It's blatantly obvious that more items unlocked gives you an edge. I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute this, and I don't think anyone here has.

My point was that you are blowing the different out of proportion. Can items be the deciding factor? Sure they can. But if that's the case, then the two teams would otherwise have been really close to each other. So statistically speaking, you wouldn't lose that many more games becasue they farmed and you didn't. Which was my point: alkthough it can give you an edge to farm, you can still be very competetive without it.

I do think that PvP characters should have everything unlocked, but only as long as PvP characters with everything unlocked fight only other PvP characters with everything unlocked. The PvE characters (and PvP w/o everything unlocked, assumiong such a setting would exist) would otherwise get completely shafted.

Cain · May 15, 2005, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaineTog

And your point would be what?

It's blatantly obvious that more items unlocked gives you an edge. I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute this, and I don't think anyone here has.

My point was that you are blowing the different out of proportion. Can items be the deciding factor? Sure they can. But if that's the case, then the two teams would otherwise have been really close to each other. So statistically speaking, you wouldn't lose that many more games becasue they farmed and you didn't. Which was my point: alkthough it can give you an edge to farm, you can still be very competetive without it.

I do think that PvP characters should have everything unlocked, but only as long as PvP characters with everything unlocked fight only other PvP characters with everything unlocked. The PvE characters (and PvP w/o everything unlocked, assumiong such a setting would exist) would otherwise get completely shafted.

My point is, that for a level playing field to exist, everyone must have access to the same stuff. That means everyone should have all the runes and items, or everyone should have none of them. As long as it's equal then we are happy. If you think that you can be competitive without items, then get a PvP team together and do the tombs and GvG and tell me it doens't make a difference. Please prove to me that having your main damage line at 16 does not make a difference compared to having it at level 12. We competitive PvP guilds are not asking for everything. We want everyone to have access to the exact same things without any conditions. Then and only then will a level playing field exist. The amount you farm should not impact your effectiveness in PvP yet it does. This completely goes against everything ANet was advertising about Guild Wars.

spiritofcat · May 15, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasteland

I'm not sure if this would be a good solution but as a few suggestion:

Regular rewards from winning PvP battles in such a way that the items gained from winning in PvP can be used to obtain the runes you need (Obviously drop rate etc needs to be balanced so PvP only doesn't give an advantage over PvE)

I've never actually tried it, but I'm assuming you can't use signet of capture in a PvP battle. If you could that would give the PvP only players a way of obtaining the rare skills without having to do PvE.

Don't know how far these would address things though.

Now there's a good idea!
How about if also when you killed someone in PvP a a copy of an item of theirs dropped too, like when you kill a Charr and get their armour or whatever to salvage.
So then if you killed a player who had a rune you wanted you have a chance of salvaging it from their armour, likewise with the mods from their weapons.

Tanik · May 15, 2005, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

My point is, that for a level playing field to exist, everyone must have access to the same stuff. That means everyone should have all the runes and items, or everyone should have none of them. As long as it's equal then we are happy. If you think that you can be competitive without items, then get a PvP team together and do the tombs and GvG and tell me it doens't make a difference. Please prove to me that having your main damage line at 16 does not make a difference compared to having it at level 12. We competitive PvP guilds are not asking for everything. We want everyone to have access to the exact same things without any conditions. Then and only then will a level playing field exist. The amount you farm should not impact your effectiveness in PvP yet it does. This completely goes against everything ANet was advertising about Guild Wars.

They want a FPS, like it or not GW's is an RPG, which entails Character Development. true its not a common MMORPG, but it still EASILY qualifies under the RPG genre. Which means some kind of development process aside from "what gun do i use?" Now i love FPS, and i love RPG's but for completely different reasons, if you were to give everyone everything from the start, all items, all runes, all of everything. That would even it, true. But it would make it boring. Im playing RP right now to build up some strong characters later for PvP, i enjoy the CREATING of these, not simply clicking a button and having it done for me. If i want everything equal thats pretty much what all other genre's do RTS, FPS,most everything aside from RPG is a totally equal playing feild. RPG's are about the journey, not the destination, along the way you get better and stronger you earn new skills and weapons, to simply have everything open from the beginning is taking the very RP elements out of this RPG. Now a compromise for this(yes i do have a solution this isnt just a rant) is to have seperate PvP brackets for RP and PvP ill stick with the RP portion the PvPer's can have everything unlocked for all i care so long as the people im faceing are also RP characters..

Lazarous · May 15, 2005, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

They want a FPS, like it or not GW's is an RPG, which entails Character Development.

Perhaps, and this a bit of a strech, i know - hurts my brain just writing it; but perhaps the people are looking for a game that has customizable classes (which means you change HOW you play at your discretion) a balanced skillset, real decisions in combat...
and not the character advancement? *gasp*

Blasphemy.

Laz

WraithlordGV · May 15, 2005, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Man, this guy came from L2, no game, save perhaps sim ant, had such a mindless and dull grind for pointless things. Don't even get me started on drop rate for good items. You could consider yourself lucky if you got one thing a WEEK.

Epinephrine · May 15, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

If you give any decent team access to Zealous Mods, Superiors and +20% enchantment no one except a guild with access to alot of skills that currently must be grinded for will have any chance to beat them. It has nothing to do with skill, it's item availability.

Right, no one wants to take away from the rewards gotten through PvE. We want a system where PvP can be seen as an actual part of the game and not a pit-stop. But to reach that point we must all look at things objectively and recognize that their is indeed an issue here. No amount of reading off the back of the box can tell you what actually happens in game. If you dont believe me you can grind the items yourself or ask some of the better players to make you builds around those items and ask how they work.

Agree with your first point disagree with the second.
I see no point at all to having any power derived from PvE. I do want to take away rewards through PvE. I see no benefit in giving them ANY edge because they choose to invest time having fun. The PvE is a fun exploration, the PvP is a serious competition. Those don't mix well - if you want fair/even playing field to have a respectable PvP environment where rank REALLY means something, drop any PvE-PvP connection.

LocalBoyZ · May 15, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

There is no grind. It is EASY to get to level 20, and it is WAY too easy to get the items you want. You don't want to farm for runes? Then use the gold (wich is sooooo easy to get in this game) you have and buy some runes. You can get a max damage rare sword with PERFECT mods for 2.5k if you're patient. Gold is the currency and gold is VERY easy to get. This game isn't item dependent enough, and you should be able to level above 20.

Epinephrine I totally disagree with you. If you work hard at building your char and putting all sorts of effort into it you should be a billion times better then stupid pvp chars. They should take pvp chars out of the game totally. You can do everything with a pve char as you can with a pvp accept you're WAY stronger with a pve char becuase of the skills, runes, and weapon peices you've obtained. If you play through the pve campain you probably know how to handle yoru char and manage yoru skills alot better also. This is the only game that offers max lvl chars without having to play through the game and I think it's rediculous. Competing in pvp events with other lvl 20's should be a privelige earned by actually leveling your character to 20. But if people want to play pvp only let them play with their weak pre fab chars that have only one stat on a weapon, no runes on armor, and no skills. Real pvpers have played through the game anyway.

BlaineTog · May 15, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

My point is, that for a level playing field to exist, everyone must have access to the same stuff. That means everyone should have all the runes and items, or everyone should have none of them. As long as it's equal then we are happy. If you think that you can be competitive without items, then get a PvP team together and do the tombs and GvG and tell me it doens't make a difference. Please prove to me that having your main damage line at 16 does not make a difference compared to having it at level 12. We competitive PvP guilds are not asking for everything. We want everyone to have access to the exact same things without any conditions. Then and only then will a level playing field exist. The amount you farm should not impact your effectiveness in PvP yet it does. This completely goes against everything ANet was advertising about Guild Wars.

You arn't listening to me.

Items clearly effect your performance. However, Items are not the end-all, be-all. A team with good Runes and a team with no/poor runes can still play together just fine, although the former will win more often.

goku19123 · May 15, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaineTog

A team with good Runes and a team with no/poor runes can still play together just fine, although the former will win more often.

And that is his point.

May 15, 2005, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Agree with your first point disagree with the second.
I see no point at all to having any power derived from PvE. I do want to take away rewards through PvE. I see no benefit in giving them ANY edge because they choose to invest time having fun. The PvE is a fun exploration, the PvP is a serious competition. Those don't mix well - if you want fair/even playing field to have a respectable PvP environment where rank REALLY means something, drop any PvE-PvP connection.

Well I dont want to give PvE players an edge either. I'm just in favor of having both areas of the game able to unlock any items/runes/skills in the game for the poeple that enjoy it. If there was reward system for PvP and one for PvE wouldn't that stop most of the arguing assuming the PvP system was fair?

As you said, no one should get any kind of power shift on their characters because they spent tons of time on the PvE content. The original thought by many people was that once you hit some decent time invested of lets say 30-40 hours everything would take little time to obtain-balancing the game out for everyone by making stuff accessible and not by how long you played. ArenaNet dropped the ball, most of the rational people in the community know they dropped the ball and anyone trying not to be on any extreme side of the debate know they dropped the ball. We just have to hope other people realize it to so that these topics stop dying to stupidity and get somewhere for once.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 15, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LocalBoyZ

This game isn't item dependent enough, and you should be able to level above 20.

People still can't stop trying to make GW like any other grind based MMO. It should NOT be more item dependant and NEVER should have the level cap raised.

Yes Anet has really dropped the ball. The grind may not be as obvious or as bad as in other online "MMO's" but it's still there. A lot of it is cleverly hidden...but in a lot of instances still not fun.